Just wanted to take a minute or two to get something off my chest regarding the growing trend in Hollyweird to take certain established roles, and re-cast them so as to make them more ethnically diverse.
As a quick dislaimer, I just want to put it out there that I am not a racist.
I hate everyone equally regardless of color or religion.
So there;)
Anyhoo,
What set this all off for me, was getting into a debate with Dan Slott. You know, the guy who writes the Amazing Spider-Man and Silver Surfer for Marvel Comics.
So I was commenting along with some others about the sheer redonkulousness of casting well-known characters who just happen to be white(since that's what color they happened to be when they were made) with more ethinically diverse actors.
Case in point, Jamie Foxx cast as Electro, or hell the latest Annie remake, but with mostly black leads.
Again. not trying to sound racist, but why?
So that movie studios can point to these remakes in order prove to the public that they're being socially progressive by the diverse casting?
Isn't that creating racial problems where there isn't one if race doesn't matter?
Anyways, here's a sample of how Slott feels, and of course he, like anyone, is entitled to their own opinion.
Write down 10 words to describe Peter Parker.
"White" shouldn't be in there.
Or the first 100.
Or thousand.
If it is, you don't get him.
And after 75 years of Marvel comics... there'll still be plenty of white characters to go around no matter what. Honest. :-D
My part of the bet: That's when I'd move on. Because there's some level of stupid that's just not worth the time to argue w/. And that's it.
Had a bet w/ someone when the stupid-levels would rise high enough for someone to go here. RT @**** @DanSlott African people can be white.
By that logic Dean Cain (who's part Japanese) already has. :-) RT @Kingpin5050 @DanSlott So by that logic Will Smith could play Superman.
I keep hearing "Fair's fair..." &
"Why not switch POC characters to white ones?"
Because "Fair is NOT fair".
Here: http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters …
This is all YOUR fault. We should only do B&W comics from now on. :-P RT @SotoColor @DanSlott are you screaming into wind again?
.@thesuppertest @f8c1b37cb9224b0 Weak. There's a dif between being colored 1 way in the comics & it being an integral part of his character.
Dan Slott retweeted
@DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 It is clearly established in Peter Parker's origins that he was a nerdy white kid from New York.
- @DanSlott @thesuppertest Would it be cool to you if this applied to someone like Superman or the Lone Ranger?
- @f8c1b37cb9224b0 @thesuppertest Did casting Dean Cain (who was part Japanese) destroy Superman for all time? Did you survive that as a fan?
- @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 dean Cain looked like the classic Superman. That part seems salient. Can Mark Walberg play Luke Cage?
- @thesuppertest @f8c1b37cb9224b0 ...is clearly established in their origins and core stories as elements that help define who they are and...
- @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 It is clearly established in Peter Parker's origins that he was a nerdy white kid from New York.
- @thesuppertest @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 ' there is peter parker and a character names miles who is from a different marvel universe'
- @CreeperDude720 @f8c1b37cb9224b0 Regardless, Jackson has been wonderful as Fury.
- @CreeperDude720 @f8c1b37cb9224b0 whether Fury in the MU also gets drawn like Jackson in future iterations remains to be seen.
- @CreeperDude720 @f8c1b37cb9224b0 just a heads up. The idea to make Fury Sam Jackson gets its birth in "the Ultimates" and pre-dates MCU.
- @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 ...who was, y'know, a black guy.
- @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 you keep bringing up MCU Fury, but that Fury is obviously based more on Ultimate Fury rather than 616 Fury...
- @f8c1b37cb9224b0 @thesuppertest The comics version of Nick Fury was black before the MCU version, which is why Samuel L Jackson was chosen
- @SidizenKane @thesuppertest @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 id rake childish gambino for spiderman! All day, everyday. He fits the nerdy type.
- @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 @thesuppertest The best actor already had the job. No need to recast at all.
- @thesuppertest @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 I do have to call it a day, but I wouldn't mind picking this up another time since it's been civil
- . @thesuppertest @DanSlott @f8c1b37cb9224b0 -this is not the case, and so we're not talking about this issue in vacuum. We can't afford to.
Dan Slott 
MaxII 
Marv El 
David P Standfield 
Kindanasty 
Andrew Horton 
Michael Fielding 
JAPSPEPORJ FENWAY I know, a lot to sift through, but yeah him and I definitely debated the race issue there for a bit.
He even posted this link to further back up his opinion:
http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters
Basically that site just talks about how race shouldn't matter.
Anyways, my main gripe went from that to the issue of Nick Fury.
I explained that I felt it was bullshit that the only Nick Fury fans will soon remember is the Sam L one.
Hey, I'll be the first one to admit how cool Sam L Fury is. He's the shit. He is.
But due to that popularity from the movies, it's crossed over into the comics with the Original Sin taking the Lee/Kirby version off the board.....possibly for decades?
Slott didn't have a rebutal for that, which I guess I understand, since he's employed by the same company responsible for said act.
But c'mon on. Own that shit and toe the line to be that company man or else they fire your as if you say one negative thing against them.
Gotta' stay employed. Gotta' do it I suppose.
I will end that particulat gripe with a possible solution.
Maybe a possinle explanation for the descripencies.
I believe the same guy that caused all this fuss, already solved it...sort of.
Back in late-2001, Millar wrote Ultimate X-Men#10, which introduced the world to another Nick Fury separate from the already established Sam L . Fury one.
In this story, Nick Fury really could've been any color since his the constant mention of his image inducer was prevalant throughout his enitre appearence.
The whole thing casts doubt on who exactly the real Fury is then if there's stories of him being black in one mention, and then maybe asian the next.
By keeping things ambigious, you bring back the mystery-spy element that Fury originally embodied.
The bad news is usng the dreaded reboot word, even if its a soft reboot.
Just saying....
After Secret Wars, I believe Marvel just might....just might, use the ambigious angle to explain why Fury is both white and black in the comics, but mostly black in the movies.
I know that Brevoort and several other Marvel officials swear up and down the two universes won't crossover and replace the current comic continuity.
I could be wrong.
I will say this about Spider-Man being turned into another race. .
Go for it. I think Miles Morales is a fresh take on the updated Spider-Man for the nw milininium.
That being said, I still want Peter Parker as Spider-Man. I think we wll do.
And that's why, love or hate it, the Spider-Verse concept helps with all that, ensuring everyone gets what they want.
You present a monlthly anthology about the different Spiders of the multiverse.
Doesn't have to be particularly a big event, just focusing on a few diffeent Spider-Men or Women.
See Mr. Slott. You helped give us all on out on that one too;)
Yes the very idea of a white version of Luke Cage is noth hilarious and redonkulous...that's kinda' the whole point right?
Same reason why trying to shoe-horn in racial diversity where it didn't need to be shoe-horned in.
Two other things that I'm curious to see what Mr. Slott has to think about marvel all but admitting to out-right banning the X-Men and Fanstastic Four brands, as far as new material goes;
1).There's a well-known freeze on the further production of new materil for the Fantastic Four all FF-related characters, and limited freezes on the X-Men. Like say, no comics or merchansing support of the recent FOX X-Men movie.
2). Why marvel's really retconning the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver's orgins in favor of the new Avenger's movie version origin., and whther or not he believes all these changes
Smells like something lawsuit-worthy is brewing on the horizon.
Smells kind of like why DC gave Superman a new costume and broker up Lois and Clark.
Lawsuit.
As in when the heirs of Segel and Shuster were still battling DC in court.
Search Results
- IIsaac PerlmutterMarvel Entertainment, CEO
Give me your thoughs on all this. Go for it. I don't care if we agree or not, I wanna' know what you think.
15 comments:
I...
I dunno, man... That is a lot to sift through.
I can say that when they cast Michael Clarke Duncan as The Kingpin Of Crime I was all like: but... he's NOT The Kingpin.
Then he was the best part of that movie. And I was like: He is TOTALLY The Kingpin!
Then they cast Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury and I was like: Everyone loves Samuel L. Jackson... but he is not Nick Fury.
But he's fine in those movies- he's Samuel L. fucking Jackson! -But he's not playing the character of Nick Fury. Awhile ago I was watching some Marvel cartoons on YouTube and one featured Nick Fury making a cameo. -Comic book Nick Fury... White Nick Fury... And the comment thread was so funny- all these young people confused as fuck by why he was white! Nick Fury isn't a white guy!- they said.
Then Idris Elba as Heimdall... Why was there even controversy over that one? Big who cares what color Heimdall is in a movie... I wish Idris Elba was cast as the new Doctor. That would have been awesome.
Michael B. Jordan as The Human Torch... so many racist comments online when they announced this. It's like... I mean- really??? Who cares? Why is this a thing???
I get it- but then I don't get it.
When I was in high-school, my English Lit teacher showed the class Much Ado About Nothing with Denzel Washington as Don Pedro, and Keanu Reeves as Don John- and a kid raised his hand and said: I don't get it. If they're supposed to be Brothers- why are they different races?" (Never mind that Don John is an illegitimate bastard, but I digress) -My teacher sighed, and said "They cast ACTORS, not SKIN-COLOR."
I wanted Childish Gambino for Spider-Man more than ANYTHING! Instead we got two crappy reboot movies that sucked SO hard. #DonaldGloverForSpiderMan
I was not mad that Electro was Jamie Foxx, I was not upset that Electro was black... I was upset because Electro was BLUE! I was upset that is was NOT Electro, that he was fucking stupid looking... And to make ELECTRO look even stupider? -You gotta be trying really hard! Anyone could have been cast- that version of Electro was gonna suck no matter what!
I was stoked that Donald Glover got to voice Miles Morales in the Spider-Man cartoon. I would be stoked if Miles Morales IS the Spider-Man they use in the upcoming Civil War, and Infinity War movies...
I'd be bummed if it wasn't Donald Glover though... Even if he is too old for the role now- they cast actors, right? -Not age?
Whoever was Tweeting about a white Black Panther up there- that makes ZERO sense. A poor kid from Queens can be black just as easily as white. A King of an African Nation isn't gonna be a white guy. Let's not be ridiculous.
When I was young- there was this book I read called Planet Fall. It was a Science-Fiction Comedy, in the style of Hitchhikers Guide, and based on a computer game- although I never knew all that back then... The point is- you follow this guys adventures through space, survival on an alien planet etc... and only at the end, when a hot alien babe brings it up, do you discover he was a black guy all along. But it didn't/shouldn't matter. And that was the point: You enjoyed the story regardless of the main characters skin-color. And that always stuck with me. And I wish people would apply that logic to these movies. Enjoy the story of Spider-Man. It does not matter if he's black or white or Asian or a woman or gay or a goddamn pig!!! It's the story that matters. As long as they don't fuck THAT up again- we should be fine.
I'd agree with that sentiment if the whole thing didn't smack so much of pandering to special interest groups, which sticks so hard in my craw that it makes me want to scratch. I had the same problem with Electro that you did King. He was blue. He wasn't Electro. And frankly I've never much cared for Jamie Foxx. And that's putting aside the fact that Andrew Garfield was the crappiest Peter Parker this side of the clone saga.
I didn't really like the Miles Morales storyline. He was fine. He's not badly written. But to just "snap" destroy Peter like that to simply introduce a new Spidey that is ethnically diverse smacks, again, of pandering and the fact that the writing was well done didn't exactly divert my attention from the "moral of the story". I think casting actors and not skin color is fine, up to a point. I don't have a problem with it, until they make a point of it. Which is exactly what they are starting to do. Sam Jackson is fine, they cast him precisely because they drew Nick Fury as Sam Jackson in the comic. It was a nod to the geeks. It's become something else, but really, I can't blame the movies for that. Idris Elba as Heimdall worked, because he stepped into the role, the role didn't step into him. There are, however, certain iconic roles, and certain iconic actors that this cannot be done with. And it doesn't even always have to do with race. Take, for instance, if Nick Cage had actually done Superman. Would that have worked? No. Because it wouldn't have been Superman. It would have been Nick Cage doing Superman. We wouldn't have seen Superman, we would have seen the actor doing a caricature. It breaks the fourth wall, and takes us out of the film, which is not what we want. We want to see our comics come alive on the screen.
(Addendum: If the actor is hot, there is a little more leeway. See: Dean Cain, Aquaman.)
I don't see it as pandering to any special-interest groups... even if that was the original intent by some misguided executive. -We can play that game all day; every single time a woman is a lead in a film or comic- is that pandering? Every gay/lesbian/trans character introduced in comics, or on television- is that pandering?? Every time they put a female creative team or director on a female character's book or film??? When a version of a character comes out that's a different race than they were originally??? -When is it pandering and when is it just the way it is because that's what they did because that's what they wanted to do?
Is it only NOT pandering if they don't announce it in any way or draw any attention to it themselves? Because they are all still in the business of making money- and any kind of diversity makes money- not because it's panderous- but because it identifies with so many people who had nothing to identify with before!
I don't care for Jamie Foxx either... but like I said- no actor could have made that version of the character interesting.
I thought Garfield looked good in the suit- he looked way more like Spidey than Toby did- but his acting and the character they wrote for him; barf.
As for Miles Morales- Peter Parker still exists in the main 616. Nothing happened to him, his books are still there, no one replaced him to pander to anyone. I always hated the Ultimate Universe. -And Ultimate Spider-Man! They're terrible. But that's the point of alternate universes in comic books- they're a sandbox to play in- try new things, do whatever you want! It's sad that Miles has that stigma of 'taking the real Spider-Man away from us' when he did no such thing. -Because comics! Both versions of Nick Fury can exist simultaneously. Hundreds of Spider-Men can exist simultaneously- do you still think it's pandering when about 96% of them are all still white guys?
I highly recommend anyone to read the story "Heroes Don't Cry" in Peter Parker: Spider-Man (Vol. 2) #35 by Paul Jenkins and Mark Buckingham. It's insanely relevant.
-Everyone deserves a hero.
Yeah- but Nick Cage is a terrible actor to begin with. It does not matter what color he is- people only "like" his acting ironically. ;)
@King and @Ging: So many good points made you guys.
Can both Fury(s) exist? Sure, but in the ocmics? Why? Isn't one enough?
Again nothing wrong with diversity. But when it's used in a misguided way, it's racist.
Like I said, I love and enjoy Jackson's take as Fury. I just don't see why it has to replace the original. Race aside, it's just another example of newer replacing older, even when it's not necessary. But because of the movies being so popular, most audiences will only idenfity with Jackson's portryal as THE Nick Fury. That's wrong and ignorant, but that's how I see it going down.
In other words, it's not so much(althought that too) they got ditched OG Fury for the movie version, it's how.
Look, you wanna' make Spider-Man black? Go ahead.
Stan Lee made a comment to Kevin Smith about why Spider-Man appealed to so many people. It's because underneath the mask, Spider-Man could be anyone.
I saw that same movie "Much Ado About Nothing btw. Really good movie. Highly recommend that one.
No, it's not pandering every time a character is a minority. But it is pandering to switch a character with an established history to a minority just to appeal to a different demographic. And I have no problem with social commentary, but I prefer it in the form of good writing and not preachy, kill off a popular character and shove a new one down the public's throat kind of way. That annoys me. A good example of minority writing? Runaways. In no way was that pandering. Good writing. Good social commentary. In no way preachy. And at no time did they have to take a character already in continuity and change them. Why? Because they wrote new ones that were GOOD. Which is what artists and writers do. At least the ones with any kind of imagination. And I'm fairly certain that kind of social conscience could find it's way into the comic book movies without changing the race of any of the characters by way of good writing if people would stop thinking in terms of racial awareness and simply think in terms of making the best movie possible. Because at their core comic book movies are stories of Good defeating Evil.
Well put Ging.
That's another thing. Rather than try to change an iconic characters skin/race/gender to appear to ve hip and modern, simply make new characters.
I posed this response to Dan Slott, and his response was that iconic characters like Spider-Man or Santa Claus, don't get made everyday.
True, but that doesn't mean you stop trying to create new and original characters.
That's a major developmental progresion problem with the big two, as Googum and I have talked about before.
No one makes anything new anymore for fear they'll lose the legal rights to said creation to their employer.
That;s we saw, and contiune to see variations done already established characters.
Red Leader, Red She-Hulk. Red HUlk, etc.
If you stop trying to create new content, you end up stale and static.
Where would Kirby and Lee be if they just stayed with what they created, and kept recycling the same shit over and over again?
Exactly, Dale. I've had that discussion with my Dad a lot. The creativity of science fiction and fantasy is one of the reasons he and I have always read the genre. Which is basically what comics is. Unfortunately it also tends to become a cycle of rehashed ideas and static melodrama. Now, I'm totally cool with rewriting a old classic, but let's not just do it for the sake of doing it. Do it because you actually have a cool idea. Like Frank Herbert's Dune. Which basically no one gets is a an allegory for Greek tragedy. Because he's brilliant. Or Saga. Which, hello Romeo and Juliet. Kind of. But it's the kind of that kicks it up a notch. There are always new ideas. Publishers just need to be brave. And readers do too.
All this talk of rehashing old ideas and stifled creativity... White Nick Fury's exit-story was amazing! -Original Sin was awesome. And bringing the best parts of the Ultimate Universe to the 616 is a great idea- they sifted through all the crap and what rose to the top can stay. Universes merge all the time in comics.
-They are new characters, even if new versions of familiar characters. That's always been done in comics too: Swamp/Man-Thing, Charlton / Watchmen etc... everything apes off of something.
Red Hulk? I liked the story at first... until the big reveal. Which was pretty lame. But it's comics- everything has been done before. In the first Hulk comics I ever bought as a kid- he was grey!!!
There is room for stuff like Saga; which is a story- and Spider-Man; which is a comic.
Why do we need two Nick Furys? I dunno- why do we need a hundred Spider-Men? Because it's awesome.
Why did we need John Stewart? We already had a Green Lantern. And guess what- he still exists! John Stewart did not make him go away forever. We can have both- and pick and choose what one will represent the character in different media. Just like movies and cartoons can pick between Peter or Miles now.
"We ought to have a black Green Lantern, not because we’re liberals, but because it just makes sense." -Neal Adams
Why make newer versions of existing characters a different race? Because it's supposed to be... SHOULD BE... acceptable now. Whereas when most of these characters were first created- it was not.
@King: Oh yeah, no I get all that, truly. But...Was it really, realy needed? What couldn't already be told with OG Nick that could by Sam L. Fury?
But yeah. you're right, this does happen all the time. Revisions are made, new ideas stick and become old mythology.
I will say this about Fury's exit. he went out like a pimp. The way he took down the Avengers, even as highly unlikely as a lot of those contingencies he used were, he did. And did it in a way that even Batman would give him dap for.
Oh, Batman would give 'em the bro-fist! He was fucking ruthless... reminded me of when Deathstroke took out the JLA. I loved it.
And my point is, why not just use that amazing creative brain power and make new characters? Leave my old ones alone, write them well, and give me new ones to root for. Then I'll love you all the more, instead of bitching at the corporations for playing dollars and cents with propaganda.
@King: Yep! especially the way he jobed out Tony and Thor....and we still don't what the fuck he said t Thor....Still!
But Random, my point is that they ARE (mostly) amazing stories! And they always have been throughout comic history of such things happening... And it's not propaganda- it's marketing. And without marketing- the entire industry falls flat and there are no new comics or characters for anyone... of any color, or any age.
@Dale- do we still not know? I am wayyyyyy behind on my Avengers/Thor books (Inhumans, Silver Surfer, and Spider-Verse has kept me busy!)- last I read of Thor was during Original Sin back when he went to find his sister from Spawn comics with Loki... I have not even read the new Female Thor book yet. Or the new Iron-Man!
@King: Yeah whatever happened to make him unworthy still hasn't been revealed yet. And OG was how many months ago? Oh yeah almost a year!
The hype's built so long that I think when it is revealed it'll be a huge let down.
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